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May 18, 2008
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Kinnaree off-cut by Himmapaan Kinnaree off-cut by Himmapaan
An off-cut from one half of my kinnaree pop-up card , together with the drawing I made as the pattern. I thought they might be interesting to see...
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:iconaylen-o-y:
Aylen-O-Y Featured By Owner Sep 16, 2011  Hobbyist General Artist
beautY !!!
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:icongallpino:
gallpino Featured By Owner Nov 18, 2010  Professional General Artist
Quality is your middle name.
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:iconhimmapaan:
Himmapaan Featured By Owner Nov 23, 2010  Professional Traditional Artist
So extremely kind of you.
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:iconjoeonly:
JoeOnly Featured By Owner Oct 8, 2010
hey good job i lv it
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:iconmijelly:
mijelly Featured By Owner Mar 10, 2010
I adore this image because, even though it's sorta a by-product of your actual piece, the photo gives off a kind of light and shadow duality.

Looking back at the other photos, I absolutely adore your technical skills. I could never piece together something like this. Good job!
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:iconttnn:
ttnn Featured By Owner Oct 1, 2009
Dear Niroot:

Interesting name you've chosen, and thank you for this project!

On a comment I just wrote, a propos these Kinnaree,
I've just referenced this off-cut view of yours,
because it so clearly shows the bird-woman concept.

Among Thai statues I've seen on the Internet,
this is the one I like the most, but, alas,
her feet are cut off and the two humans in the picture are distracting.
Do you happen to know of a better photograph of that same statue?
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:iconhimmapaan:
Himmapaan Featured By Owner Oct 2, 2009  Professional Traditional Artist
Dear Tom,

Thank you so much for your comment. I'm curious, though, that you should have chosen the off-cut instead of the pop-up itself [link] to reference (I assume you did read my descriptions =P). :giggle: There is yet another link in my notes on that pop-up piece to my drawing of the version of the kinnaree with human legs.

I must confess I rather balk too at the implication, through the harpy comparison, that the bird-legged version is not 'lovely and graceful', too. :giggle: As you have seen, even the temple versions and traditional Thai paintings still show them as beautiful. :D

I'm afraid I do not know where else to find another picture of that same statue. :( But I shall keep a look-out, and let you know if I come across any. There is, however, another lovely statue of a kinnara (the male; 'kinnorn' as pronounced in Thai) and kinnaree family here on dA, though I suspect you may have seen it already: [link] .
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:iconttnn:
ttnn Featured By Owner Oct 2, 2009
Dear Patron Saint:

Your off-cut is like a blueprint, very clear, and it has a clear reference to the finished product. Congratulations!

My allusion to harpies is a cultural contrast, and a statement that the concept of grace and loveliness transcends the details of external form. Orangutan countenance is a far cry from what most humans would consider maidenly loveliness, yet in their gentle demeanor one can find affinity with the kinnaree ideal.

What I'm trying to say is that
  1. Even if the Himmapaan forest does not exist on this planet in a literal sense, there are elements of said forest that do exist (and, by implication, should be cherished and protected).
  2. If we can show an example of smart and gentle jungle-dwellers here, then perhaps there are other examples, perhaps still closer to the Himmapaan ideal, elsewhere in our galaxy (far, but real).
Thank you for that link to the kinnara family: I had seen it on the Internet, then lost it; thank you!
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:iconhimmapaan:
Himmapaan Featured By Owner Oct 2, 2009  Professional Traditional Artist
Oh, I do agree with you wholeheartedly on that point from the first; I think that's a wonderful thought. :nod: It was simply the sentence 'you will find them a bit more reminiscent of the Greek “snatchers” (harpies), whereas the verbal tradition describes the Kinnaree as lovely, graceful and musically gifted...', especially the word 'whereas' that seemed to me to suggest that the traditional depictions were at odds with the folkloric descriptions of loveliness. :giggle: But this is merely me as a lover of words stumbling on a particular nuance of a sentence (which may never have been intended at all to begin with); it happens all the time, I'm afraid. :giggle: And I hope you understood that I was being tongue-in-cheek when I said I 'balked'. Hence the giggles. :D And to prove it, here's a hug to go with it. :hug: :D
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:iconttnn:
ttnn Featured By Owner Oct 2, 2009
...this is merely me as a lover of words stumbling on a particular nuance...
Well, if a lover of words stumbles, it indicates I was trying too hard to abridge!

I was pointing out the fact that ~gotgituey was representing his particular kinnaree with a higher ratio of human-to-bird than what you would normally see in Thai temples. The traditional ratio (and I give examples, including yours) is closer to that of Greek harpies. Granted that harpies and kinnaree have different anatomy, the big difference, I claim, lies in a misogynous description and dreadful expectation of harpies, but a harmonious and delightful expectation of kinnaree, and I attribute this difference more to cultural mindset than to artistic license of individual artists. The basic concept could in principle be present, on a different planet, regarding creatures that looked like slugs to us—
or, closer to home, that looked like orangutans! :neom:

I'd go back and edit my lengthy comment, but DA's software won't let me! :wizardhat:
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:iconhimmapaan:
Himmapaan Featured By Owner Oct 3, 2009  Professional Traditional Artist
Oh, I understood you from your previous reply, I assure you. :giggle: I wasn't persisting in any protest, simply explaining myself and where I tripped. :D

I have long wished that dA allowed the editing of comments, too. Perhaps we ought to suggest it to staff...
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:iconttnn:
ttnn Featured By Owner Oct 3, 2009
Editing of comments has been suggested.
They reject it as a matter of policy, not for any technical reason.
Pssst. Critiques can be deleted and re-posted. Shhh...

What I'll do, a few days from now,
is post an addendum to that long comment of mine,
incorporating much of what you and I have been discussing here,
so I thank you for your feedback, really!
Incidentally, I must congratulate you on your recent honors ref. the Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám!! :winner:
[No idea what your allusion to mediocrity refers to.] :?
Reply
:iconhimmapaan:
Himmapaan Featured By Owner Oct 8, 2009  Professional Traditional Artist
A matter of policy indeed. Hmph! :XD:

And thank you so much for your kind words about the Rubáiyát. :thanks:

The mediocrity is very true in many instances, I'm afraid...
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:iconsqsml:
sqsml Featured By Owner Jan 9, 2009
Even though the finished design is so beautiful, I love looking at the original designs since many details in the pencil designs aren't included later.
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:iconisolde:
isolde Featured By Owner Sep 2, 2008
a little question...how did you get the pattern on the card? by pressing?
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:iconkcorbett:
kcorbett Featured By Owner Aug 29, 2008  Professional Filmographer
I'm in awe! Beautiful work! You said you used a scalpel - not an exacto?
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:iconmamath:
Mamath Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2008
Goooorgeous, as is the finished product! I'm so happy that "Thai garuda" are getting some love! <3 I really adore Thai mythology. :D
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:iconhimmapaan:
Himmapaan Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2008  Professional Traditional Artist
Hehe, this isn't a garuda, however - but I may well make a garuda someday too. :D Thank you so much for your kind words, and I'm so pleased to meet someone who loves Thai mythology. :D
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:iconmamath:
Mamath Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2008
Ah, I've seen these guys referred to as garuda before but I guess I was misinformed! Maybe "angels' would be more appropriate?

I'm half Thai, so, yeah, Thai mythology ftw! I took me until just a few years ago to really come to appreciate it (not much exposure as a child :( ) but, man, traditional Thai art is so beautiful and the mythical creatures are so unique and auughgh I love it so! <3
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:iconhimmapaan:
Himmapaan Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2008  Professional Traditional Artist
Ah, no, this is a kinnaree (exactly as the title says), and is female (did you read my notes on the piece, perchance, and see the links in them?:)). The male version is a kinnorn. Neither are angels. :)

A garuda is a different creature, though as he has eagle-like features, no doubt it might be easy to mistake another human-bird hybrid for him. :D
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:iconmamath:
Mamath Featured By Owner Jun 22, 2008
I did read the description but I was looking for the english term for these guys (and girls).

I looked up the garuda on wiki and realised my mistake. xD Silly me!
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:iconhimmapaan:
Himmapaan Featured By Owner Jul 1, 2008  Professional Traditional Artist
Ah, if you mean the English term for the type of creatures, then they're simply fantastic beasts/mythical creatures, since they're neither angels nor deities. If you want to be more specific, then they're Himmapaan creatures, in reference to their habitation and in direct translation from the Thai. :D Their names, of course, remain just as they are.

Sorry for the late reply. ^^;
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:iconcageyjay:
CageyJay Featured By Owner May 20, 2008  Hobbyist General Artist
Wow. That answers which way round you did the slicing.


:? Is the pattern still in existence? I was under the impression that this procedure destroyed the original drawing out of transfer necessity.
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:iconhimmapaan:
Himmapaan Featured By Owner May 20, 2008  Professional Traditional Artist
The 'slicing' goes both way rounds, in fact, as I have to do both halves seperately.

Yes, the template is still very much in existence. :nod: I think I need to take a photocopy of it now though, if I want to use it again. I think the 'mould' has rather worn out now from the tracings (as it has to be flipped over for transfers, plus there are both halves to do...).
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:iconcageyjay:
CageyJay Featured By Owner May 20, 2008  Hobbyist General Artist
*Looks again.* Oh! I see. Sorry... I had the wrong process in mind, entirely.

Do photocopy it! Even were you never to use the mould again, some conditions might cause it to so deteriorate that its own weight could tear through the overdrawn points, and it would be a shame to lose the design. :noes:
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:iconhimmapaan:
Himmapaan Featured By Owner May 20, 2008  Professional Traditional Artist
What was the process you had in mind, out of curiosity? ^^
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:iconcageyjay:
CageyJay Featured By Owner May 21, 2008  Hobbyist General Artist
The process I was thinking of is--... well, it seems I never learned the name of it. Sorry. ^^;

What it involves is temporarily tacking together the number of layers needed with the design drawing on top, and scoring the layers with a blade held perpendicular to the paper until it gets cut through. Then, leaving the layers tacked together (including the original drawing), the artist/executor/whomever repeats the process with the interior designs, but only cutting until the desired depth, and working against a backlight in the case that a design needs to be cut on the rear side but not all the way through. Once finished, the original design can be removed (and, thoroughly destroyed, it is often thrown away), and the dimensional layers can be teased away from the main body of the layers, and any extra pieces removed with scissors.

*Re-reads.* That's probably not very clear. Would you mind if I verbally "remade" your kinnaree? If so, skip this paragraph. Your kinnaree would probably be four layers under the design. The outline would slice through layers 1-4. The tail and arm interior designs would similarly slice through layers 1-4. The front leg would be in layers 1 and 2, and the back leg would be in layers 3 and 4. The wings would only etch through layers 1 and 4 (and would be teased away from the body, leaving layers 2 and 3 intact and shaped so that there is no space when viewed from the rear). The tail coverts would be etched through all layers, but the coverts would be removed from layers 1 and 4, and the coverts in layers 2 and 3 folded over as shown.

End of desecration of your kinnaree. :) Anyway, this method tends to produce a heavier piece (not as elegant as yours). It also generally dissuades the use of smaller cut-outs, because a blade not perfectly perpendicular creates a design suffering from all the problems of paperchain men and paper snowflakes. But if you do have a blade held perfectly perpendicular and sharpened keenly, this method allows for the creation of pieces that look particularly interesting backlit (they remind me of Wedgewood's candle domes and the old-fashioned etched eggs).

Speaking of paperchain men and paper snowflakes, ~LiZn and I were talking and wondered: given the complexity and precision of your papercut designs, what do you do when called upon to make a paper snowflake?
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:iconhimmapaan:
Himmapaan Featured By Owner May 21, 2008  Professional Traditional Artist
:nod: Ah, je comprends... That process might save a little time, but needs to be very carefully planned. Plus, as you say, that doesn't allow for so much detail, and I don't think I would be very happy with that. ^^;

If I'm asked to do a snowflake, I shall probably trace all the 'branches' identically, but I would still cut them individually for the very reason given above. I would be quite unhappy with cuts bristling with burs. I know I'm a glutton for punishment. :blush: In fact, I have a not dissimilar papercutting commission for a book jacket (for The Lace Reader), which requires a lace pattern as part of it. :O I'm thoroughly NOT looking forward to doing this however - not because of the lace, but the very tight brief composed of a rather strange design which I must follow, and from which I cannot deviate. :hmm: It also involves the portrayal of a pair of faces - which must look 'contemporary'. I CAN'T DO CONTEMPORARY. ^^; The curious thing is, they want a 'classic' look, so they asked me, but they want the subject to look in part modern. Something I'm more than a little unstuck on...

Some editors, honestly.
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:iconcageyjay:
CageyJay Featured By Owner May 21, 2008  Hobbyist General Artist
*Feels guilty.* As a technical editor (though, not one who deals with the graphical end) and on behalf of editors everywhere, I apologize to you for that design brief. We're generally trained to be a bit more logical and precise than that. :roll:

When they say "contemporary," do they mean the Contemporary style (funny, I'd only ever heard of that applied to architecture), or do they just mean modern? Sometimes an oriental style can be adapted to look western-modern... Good luck with it, though. :) I'm certain you'll execute the task in such a way that your customer will be quite satisfied. When is The Lace Reader due for publication?
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:iconhimmapaan:
Himmapaan Featured By Owner May 21, 2008  Professional Traditional Artist
:ashamed: Oops. My apologies. :blush:

They simply want the faces of the girls to look modern - ie, living today, not period/historical (they obviously know what I usually do), presumably achieved with a non-historical hairstyle... :giggle: Heaven knows how I'm supposed to do that convincingly. I mean, I can refrain from doing anything historical, but as to then getting it to look like a modern-day girl... Help.

The publication won't be for a while. It certainly won't if they're asking me to do the jacket. :rofl:
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(1 Reply)
:iconslightlytriangle:
slightlytriangle Featured By Owner May 19, 2008
I did try creating a couple of very simple ' pop up' type cards (though not papercuts) a while ago and they failed miserably so I daresay I wouldn't have much success ^^; :giggle: I shall admire yours instead :aww:
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:iconhimmapaan:
Himmapaan Featured By Owner May 19, 2008  Professional Traditional Artist
Oh, I think they could fare better a second time round. :D You should try again. :D
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:iconslightlytriangle:
slightlytriangle Featured By Owner May 19, 2008
I may well do one day :D
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:iconslightlytriangle:
slightlytriangle Featured By Owner May 19, 2008
Very interesting indeed, and beautiful also :D so amazingly neatly done, I'd never be able to think how to construct such things...
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:iconhimmapaan:
Himmapaan Featured By Owner May 19, 2008  Professional Traditional Artist
Oh, I'm sure you could. :D

Thank you. :aww:
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:iconbaertari:
Baertari Featured By Owner May 18, 2008
Dear god, you're insane! You even cut perfectly, without jagged lines when coming out of a curve.
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:iconhimmapaan:
Himmapaan Featured By Owner May 19, 2008  Professional Traditional Artist
I am indeed quite mad. :rofl:

Thank you so much! :thanks:
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:iconlizn:
LiZn Featured By Owner May 18, 2008  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
Quite interesting. You have a great deal more patience than I.
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:iconhimmapaan:
Himmapaan Featured By Owner May 19, 2008  Professional Traditional Artist
Patience is probably the only thing I might actually feel able to boast of. :giggle:
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:iconlizn:
LiZn Featured By Owner May 19, 2008  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
Among other things ;)
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:iconparthgalen:
Parthgalen Featured By Owner May 18, 2008
Very interesting to see how you prepare this sort of work! The off-cut is as beautiful as the pop-up card! :aww:
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:iconhimmapaan:
Himmapaan Featured By Owner May 19, 2008  Professional Traditional Artist
Thank you so much! :aww: I thought it looked interesting so I thought I might as well share it too.
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